tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post2529131569119301553..comments2023-05-08T04:26:41.949-04:00Comments on My Little Po-Mo: Against Madoka (Rebellion)Froborrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-8091709140301593242014-06-13T05:48:49.609-04:002014-06-13T05:48:49.609-04:00going back up to my usual clash against I'll r...going back up to my usual clash against I'll ring this time with universal in saying that yes. it is very likely that homura can be viewed as a stand in for humanity rather than say, a devil like satan. for a start, Homura's actions in the film are paralleled by the Nietzsche references. and in Neitzsche's view, it is humanity that kills god. or in this case, it's homura who drags down the kannon from her enlightenment. It also parallels the author story interpretation, in which kyuubei must relinquish that aspect to madoka, the chaste soul who could save a story. but now, after apperantly washing his hands of the thing and talking about how Gen'd love to see what the fans and others do from here on out in this new beginning, we also Homura in control, symbolized with the fool and other new beginning type symbolism, and homura is the stand in for everyone else. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-20332833708970143342014-06-03T09:23:06.770-04:002014-06-03T09:23:06.770-04:00I think most of the paragraphs at the top of the p...I think most of the paragraphs at the top of the page are bunched together a little too closely. Could they maybe get more spacing?unnounnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-33209712612186874682014-05-26T03:45:47.365-04:002014-05-26T03:45:47.365-04:00I can see two ways in which the ending of Madoka M...I can see two ways in which the ending of Madoka Magica appears to violate Conservation of Death. First, Homura had created a situation in which every human on earth was about to die, and Madoka reversed that. Second, all three of the other magical girls were already dead, but in the World of Wraiths, Kyouko and Mami survive. Mami died on or before Walpurgisnacht in all of Homura's loops, and in some (if not all) loops Sayaka contracts, leading to both her death and Kyouko's death.<br /><br />We observe that in at least one timeline after the third, in which we first see Sayaka and Kyouko get involved and killed, Madoka makes it to Walpurgisnacht without encountering Kyubey, and I doubt that would have been possible if Sayaka had become a magical girl. By Conservation of Death, we should expect that once Homura has caused a loop in which Sayaka & Kyouko die, it should be impossible for her to prevent that from happening in all subsequent loops.<br /><br />My read was that Sayaka's death was to show that Madoka's accomplishment was limited (solving the big thing doesn't solve every thing) and to give an example of what happens to magical girls under the new system. Note that when Madoka is explaining to Sayaka, she claims that she could have saved her at the expense of preventing the restoration of Kamijo's hand - not at the expense of his or someone else's life.01d55https://www.blogger.com/profile/12422929110453082596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-83117601949828743832014-05-26T00:48:48.622-04:002014-05-26T00:48:48.622-04:00I think that the reason the opening sequence was s...I think that the reason the opening sequence was so obnoxious, as you put it, is that it's supposed to be obnoxious. I mean, the characters beat monsters by feeding them food and singing. Hitomi is purified by becoming a literal moeblob (and this basically parodies Sayaka's arc in the anime). It's silly and ridiculous...and that's the point. The perfect world that Homura has created (and the one that the fans wanted) is ultimately a childish fantasy.<br /><br />One of my interpretations of Rebellion is that if the original series picks at (I hesitate to use the word "deconstruction") elements of magical girl shows, then rebellion picks at the fans of the original series. So of course there's all this obvious fourth wall breaking - the movie is, to some extent, about the audience. And the ending is a "happy ending" fancomic gone horribly wrong - because in Madoka Magica, everything has a price.universalpersonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-11857760568368195272014-05-26T00:35:09.603-04:002014-05-26T00:35:09.603-04:00Personally, I don't see any Paradise Lost in R...Personally, I don't see any Paradise Lost in Rebellion Homura, unless one mistakes Milton's particular account of The Fall for the original or only telling of that legend. And as a retelling of The Fall, it's very loose - Homura isn't acting out of Pride, acts alone instead of recruiting other Magical Girls to her cause, and most crucially appears to have won, rather than being defeated and cast down.<br /><br />Neither does The Incubator fit the Lucifer of Paradise Lost role; It does not relate to Madoka as Lucifer relates to God. The Incubator has never been Madoka's servant, favored or otherwise, it owes her no loyalty and has no place in her Pure Land / Heaven. The Incubator is instead loyal to, more accurately incapable of betraying or neglecting, its designated purpose.<br /><br />I think it's much easier to read Rebellion as a retelling of The Nutcracker, which also recontextualizes Madoka Magica as The Tale of the Hard Nut. Incubator takes the roles of the various mice, Madoka is Marie (Clara), but also Pirlipat. Homura, of course, is the Nutcracker.01d55https://www.blogger.com/profile/12422929110453082596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-61935480999098786452014-05-25T23:10:32.140-04:002014-05-25T23:10:32.140-04:00Ah, yes, sorry. Conservation of death is a princip...Ah, yes, sorry. Conservation of death is a principle of most, but not all, speculative fiction (it is notably absent in superhero comics, for instance). It's really closer to entropy than a conservation law, that death can be created but never destroyed. So, for example, the immortality serum will end up requiring the death of a living person to make, or turn the person who takes it into a vampire. Traveling back in time to undo your loved one's untimely death will result in some other innocent person dying instead. And so on. It's a way of speculating about concepts like resurrection and immortality while still treating death with the seriousness it deserves.<br /><br />Madoka demonstrates it is following this principle with Sayaka, whose death in the main timeline of the show is still preserved in the new timeline Madoka creates; we see Madoka explain why to Sayaka, and Sayaka accepts. It's subtly confirmed by the fact that Homura never actually succeeds in creating a timeline where Madoka survives until the very end of Rebellion, at which point she has arguably sacrificed herself to do it. (I am treating both the transformation into a witch and the erasure of Madoka from history as forms of death.)<br /><br />So, based on that, it's safe to assume until we see evidence otherwise that the victims of witches in the show ended up dead in the new timeline, and the most likely way for that to happen is as victims of wraiths.Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-44355878909243745002014-05-25T22:44:54.514-04:002014-05-25T22:44:54.514-04:00"Law of conservation of death" is a new ..."Law of conservation of death" is a new one on me. What are you referring to? The intuitive meaning - that Death, like Energy or Momentum, is neither created nor destroyed, doesn't appear to be true in Madoka Magica.01d55https://www.blogger.com/profile/12422929110453082596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-61875772017437976372014-05-24T13:26:09.103-04:002014-05-24T13:26:09.103-04:00But that's slight and subtle, and the characte...But that's slight and subtle, and the characters don't directly acknowledge it. You could substitute Connect with another selection, and it wouldn't have added or subtracted anything substantial from the narrative experience. Mami does, and worst of all, it's her own theme song.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-73357467773308191292014-05-24T00:51:36.220-04:002014-05-24T00:51:36.220-04:00Well, it's not like the original show didn'...Well, it's not like the original show didn't do that as well - once in the very first episode with Madoka listening to Connect in the music store, and once later on (ep. 8?) with Kyouko dancing to the remixed version.Mauricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-85007815836374724732014-05-22T18:22:21.075-04:002014-05-22T18:22:21.075-04:00I think it really began getting to me was when Mam...I think it really began getting to me was when Mami began humming her own theme song. I could provide other examples, but it sort of fell apart from there. That portion of the movie so blatantly breaking the fourth wall that it took me aback. I mean, yeah, subversion of wish-fulfillment and whatnot, but why that direct? Why to that extent? Is the fan base dumb and shallow enough not to know they are being pandered to that they have to make it that mean-spiritedly, spit in the face, obvious? Then again, I'm not really the intended audience since I'm already biased against fan service in general. I don't... It could made its point once, twice, or a few times even, and then gone into something else that sorely needed it, like making Homura's flaws as character in relation to Madoka more clear, but it kept beating it over and over incessantly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-35083440269887472142014-05-22T15:30:06.073-04:002014-05-22T15:30:06.073-04:00What is it about the first segment that you find &...What is it about the first segment that you find "obnoxious"?Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-77028483924897598452014-05-22T13:44:13.928-04:002014-05-22T13:44:13.928-04:00I'll wait for your later article then for full...I'll wait for your later article then for fuller articulation, but bear in mind the TV series was a subversion of a lot of things. A lot of things, and a lot of people picked up on a lot of them, but none of it felt close to obnoxious enough to supersede the show's natural narrative flow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-27007236084814714702014-05-22T13:37:10.513-04:002014-05-22T13:37:10.513-04:00Well, presumably he's already dead? The law of...Well, presumably he's already dead? The law of conservation of death suggests that he still dies in the new timeline, most likely at the hands of the Wraith Sayaka sacrifices herself to defeat.Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-88115992147132886362014-05-22T13:35:30.374-04:002014-05-22T13:35:30.374-04:00Ah, okay.
Well, I'm going to address that poi...Ah, okay.<br /><br />Well, I'm going to address that point in a later article, but mainly my response is that you're wrong. The opening segment could not possibly have worked if it were any less over the top in its fanservice. It needed to be pure, unadulterated wish-fulfillment, precisely so that the rest of the movie could destroy it.Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-57455048085321202502014-05-22T13:22:09.719-04:002014-05-22T13:22:09.719-04:00I apologize. "If the first third of the movie...I apologize. "If the first third of the movie was meant, in some part, to be a subversion..." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-68138062288517261832014-05-22T11:20:26.236-04:002014-05-22T11:20:26.236-04:00"If the first third of the movie..." wha..."If the first third of the movie..." what? There seems to be something missing here, and I can't understand your comment without it.Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-35911689812125900912014-05-22T11:19:35.757-04:002014-05-22T11:19:35.757-04:00After much hunting... I apparently COMPLETELY IMAG...After much hunting... I apparently COMPLETELY IMAGINED IT. D'oh.<br /><br />Tons of plot allusions, no graffiti.Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-90270816225779029072014-05-22T01:35:23.546-04:002014-05-22T01:35:23.546-04:00If the first third of the movie, and I'm not s...If the first third of the movie, and I'm not saying that it wasn't, then it was rather on the nose about it, to the point it where it was trying to get its cake and eat it too, enough to break a lot of people's suspension of disbelief, evidently, to miss that part of that point. There were certainly ways to make that segment contain the same meaning while remaining narratively resonant, like dialing down the fan service to make it noticeable without being distracting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-44520959406012302022014-05-22T00:31:50.148-04:002014-05-22T00:31:50.148-04:00"Consider again who Homura brings into the la..."Consider again who Homura brings into the labyrinth, and then consider the series a a whole; setting aside witches, does any other character even have a name?"<br /><br />One of the Train Misogynists is named Shou, spoken by the other Train Misogynist. But only Sayaka hears that, therefore Homulilly cannot find him.<br /><br />I wonder what would have become of that dude if she had?01d55https://www.blogger.com/profile/12422929110453082596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-42446593008744003192014-05-21T16:51:53.181-04:002014-05-21T16:51:53.181-04:00One more thing: Where did you see Paradise Lost gr...One more thing: Where did you see Paradise Lost grafitti, and what does it say?universalpersonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-25752715069623393362014-05-21T16:30:50.935-04:002014-05-21T16:30:50.935-04:00D'oh! I replied to a comment instead of the ge...D'oh! I replied to a comment instead of the general reply!universalpersonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-54851198818109410512014-05-21T16:28:59.702-04:002014-05-21T16:28:59.702-04:00"and Sayaka reveals that Madoka's Buddha-..."and Sayaka reveals that Madoka's Buddha-nature, her memories and powers as the Law of Cycles can be held in storage by another"<br /><br />*headesks* Can't believe I missed that.<br /><br />I wouldn't say the the flower field is Homura's only motivation. The fact is Homura's barrier is her ideal world, something she realizes when she learns she is the witch. Also, pretty much everyone else says that they're happier in Homura's barrier, giving Homura more of a reason to do what she did.<br /><br />There's also something else. Homura can interfere with Madoka because she can see her - but when she does, Homura does not become a witch. This seems to contradict canon...<br /><br />Except that I feel the writers are being exceptionally clever here. Rebellion implicitly relies on a loophole in Madoka's wish, which is the fact that while witches can't be born, they can still exist. Homulilly exists because she is an unborn witch, still in her Soul Gem. Oktavia and Charlotte exist because they were never born - they were taken into the Law of Cycles. Taking this logic to it's conclusion, if Homura became a witch, then Madoka's wish would not come true. So Homura becomes a demon instead. This is the "third option" I talked about in your Episode 12 post.<br /><br />If Kyubey is an authorial stand-in, wouldn't Homura be a stand-in for the fanbase? The opening of the movie has been decried as pure fanservice, but they miss the subversive detail of the whole thing being an illusion created by a witch. This means, in the postmodern sense, that either the audience is trapped in Homura's barrier themselves, or that Homura is the fanbase and the barrier is her AU fanfic.universalpersonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-3522931681462177702014-05-21T16:13:53.188-04:002014-05-21T16:13:53.188-04:00In some of my debates with people who hate the end...In some of my debates with people who hate the ending, I bring up this idea of Rebellion literally rebelling against the show. We all assumed based on episode 12 that Homura was going to eventually succumb to the Law of Cycles and be with Madoka. Had Rebellion ended that way, what would've been the point of making a third movie? Then it really would be the cash grab some people accuse it of being, a film where Kyubey's machinations were nothing more than an inconvenience on the road to the inevitable conclusion. With that ending there's no change. <br /><br />I think Shinbo and Urobuchi viewed the film as a rebellion as well, given that Urobuchi said, "Ending the story with Madoka and Homura being reunited wasn't really the best outcome. After all, the instant Homura encounter her, she'll be guided by the Law of Cycles, and disappear. Would that make her happy? It was also the director, Mr. Shimbou's opinion that the outcome of the TV series, 'a human being becoming a god' might be too heavy a fate for a girl in middle school to bear."<br /><br />http://prism-madoka.tumblr.com/post/82048767409/whatishappened-from-the-bd-booklet-or-whateverAlexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-90220925712686152102014-05-21T16:03:47.380-04:002014-05-21T16:03:47.380-04:00Dammit! Fixing now.Dammit! Fixing now.Froborrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08782366056731381450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5106243389695628804.post-67125219525926220482014-05-21T15:05:08.664-04:002014-05-21T15:05:08.664-04:00Nice article as usual, although you forgot to ment...Nice article as usual, although you forgot to mention Kyosuke and Hitomi. Alexnoreply@blogger.com